Josef Burns Story

It all started at the Lake Washington house, where things had been running on pure exhaustion for days. Me, Kurt, and Cali had been up for so many goddamn days straight, just hanging out, doing tattoo work, and shooting dope to pass the time. Most of that was happening in Cali’s bedroom, which was this really weird space with brown wooden shelves covering the walls for records and tapes, and these massive windows that made you feel totally exposed.

At some point, Kurt left the room, and when he finally came back down, he was completely spent. His tolerance had obviously gone way down, and the drugs hit him incredibly hard—he was completely fucked up. He’d already reached and maybe even breached whatever he needed to get high, and he absolutely did not need to be doing any more dope. There was just no need for it.

We were all hanging out in the kitchen later that evening, and at first, everything seemed totally alright. We were just standing around talking about music and normal stuff. But then, the whole vibe shifted instantly. You could totally tell that things were getting way more serious and strange, and that's exactly when Dylan Carlson showed up out of nowhere.

Dylan didn’t come alone, either; he had these random, weird dudes with him. I couldn't tell exactly how many at first—it looked like just one guy standing right next to him, but there were actually a couple of other dudes hanging back in the shadows. I didn't think I'd ever seen them before. But the more I looked at the one guy hanging back, the more I realized I actually *had* seen his face around the house before, like someone had brought him around one day to hang out with the people living there. I started getting really paranoid, wondering who these people were and why the hell Dylan was bringing them to the house.

Right there in the kitchen, things completely turned to shit. Dylan and his guys immediately started pressuring Kurt, trying to get him out of the kitchen and force him back upstairs toward the space they call the greenhouse. Dylan was doing this fast-talking routine, trying to herd him up there by dangling the promise of more drugs over him. Then they started putting their hands on him, leaning on him physically to get him to move. It wasn't an outright fistfight or like they were dragging his body kicking and screaming, but they were using their bodies to block him, crowding him, and nudging him forward to force his momentum up the stairs.

I instinctively tried to move with them to stay close to Kurt and Dylan, but one of the guys cut me off. He literally got right between us to facilitate the whole thing, while the other guy who had been hanging back finally stepped up to help Dylan finish pushing Kurt out the door. It was a completely crazy, messed-up situation, and looking back, I still feel this awful weight because I knew Kurt didn't want to go up there, and I feel like I should have done something to stop it.

While they were herding Kurt up the stairs, Cali suddenly got all over me, trying to divide us up and distract me. He started quick-talking, telling me that we needed to take off and get the hell out of there right away. His excuse was that a bunch of private eyes had been sneaking around the property, videotaping us and taking photos of us doing tattoos and shooting dope, and that they had all these incriminating pictures of us. It felt like a total premeditated game to me, a setup to scare me into running away so they could isolate Kurt. Even though Cali was hounding me to leave, I just didn't feel like I should abandon the property while all of this was going down.

Eventually, the movement shifted outside near the top of the driveway. That’s when my girlfriend Bonnie and her friend Jennifer showed up after being in Cali's room. It was late night or early AM hours by then, and it was pitch blackout outside. Bonnie was really anxious to leave and was trying to figure out how we could get out of there. As we were walking toward our little station wagon car, Bonnie suddenly stopped and pointed out something through a window. It was the window of the room right above the garage, right next to the greenhouse area. She told me to look right away, and when I focused in on it, it was the weirdest, most unsettling goddamn thing. She pointed out a red dress up there. It just completely filled my head with bad thoughts, and it was strange as hell. Bonnie immediately wanted me to get the car keys so we could just get the fuck out of there. Right after she said "look," Cali checked off and walked away from us, heading back toward the stairs or into the main house.

I didn't actually see the final moments up on the balcony or inside the greenhouse because I had gone to post myself somewhere else on the property to get away from Dylan and those guys. But while I was on the premises, the gunshot went off. I definitely heard it, and it didn't sound like a distant hunting rifle or a heavy double-buck blast. It sounded entirely different, almost muffled, which makes sense if it was birdshot. I didn't see the motherfuckers physically come back down the stairs afterward, but Dylan definitely didn't hang around the property. He left immediately after the murder happened.

Right after that, this heavy, unspoken feeling of death just hung in the air. It was like everybody remaining on the property already understood exactly what had happened without anyone having to say it out loud. But the craziest part is that before the body was ever officially discovered or mentioned on the news, a note entered the picture. I never actually held the paper or read it myself, but Cali or someone else in that circle brought it out and read it out loud to me. Knowing what was on it, I'm certain someone just added those last lines to the text afterward to fake the whole thing.

During that bizarre window of time between the killing and the public discovery of the body, Eric Erlandson from the band Hole showed up briefly on the property. I always avoided Eric because he just rubbed me the wrong way, so whenever he was around, I’d deliberately hang out in a different room. But I distinctly saw him outside between Cali’s bedroom and the recording jam space. He just briefly talked to whoever he was there to see and then took off.

After the note was read to me, a total panic set in to get the hell out of town. Cali became frantic, telling me that the cops and the FBI were going to be hunting for me to force an interview out of us. He was totally sure of himself, putting it in my head that I needed to avoid law enforcement and flee to a completely different city or at least a couple of states away. It was super obvious he was being put up to saying that, just trying to force me away. So, eventually, me, Bonnie, Cali, and Jen piled into the car and finally left the house. We drove all the way to Jen's house and just completely crashed out there.

The next morning, which was Friday, we were all sitting around Jennifer's house when the TV broadcast came on. That was the moment it all got publicly confirmed. The news announced that they had finally found Kurt's body up in the greenhouse.

When you really look at the logic of who was there and who profit from it, it's clear to me. The people who showed up that night came on behalf of Courtney Love to take care of business. It was Dylan Carlson and those cold-blooded, sociopathic dudes he brought into the kitchen with him who forced Kurt up those stairs and ended his life.

THE TRANSCRIPT:

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[00:00] Interviewer 2: So one... so I'd have to leave here about noon. One from where? Joe: Uh, from the Portland airport to Victoria, BC. Yeah, that's where. And then you're going to get to Victoria and get on a ferry—no, actually I live across the street from the airport so, uh, no ferries. Just driving. Interviewer 2: I swear to God you just said ferry, that's how out of it I am. Joe: No, I keep saying ferry probably because I don't usually ever fly and I'm always taking ferries. So if I... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, so all right. Let's... I do feel like we have half of a... half of this down. We should continue. Let's just wrap it up. Joe: Okay, I guess so. You can get better shit out of me, but whatever. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Well, why don't we try to just get something tonight and then maybe even take... take... like, yeah... I mean if we were... we could get up early or whatever because I can fucking crash out at any time now. Joe: I could. The only problem is I don't have a bed. This is my... my bed is here, down... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Oh, you could, yeah... I suppose I could. It's just, uh... All right, let's see what we can get done. Interviewer 2: Yeah, yeah. Let's, uh, let's see what we get. Let's, let's, let's see... Um, when you are... when Dylan shows up with how many guys?

Part 2: The Arrival of Dylan Carlson and Others

Joe: Well... [pause] It just seems like he's there with the one guy that's standing with him, but he could have been, uh... more than the one guy. I think maybe... well, there's the one guy that's hanging back wherever, I guess. And it's like, did that guy come with Dylan or whatever? Um, probably so, I guess. Really probably two. I wish I could... yeah. Does that look... [long silence / whispering] Let me see here. I'm trying to do in my head... like, the guy that's hanging back. Either guy. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): In other words, you had never seen these guys before, correct? Joe: Um, yeah, there was like one... yeah, a couple of the dudes there um, I had never... I don't think I had seen them. But well, you know, I'm thinking I haven't seen the one guy, but you... when I think about it more, and I had seen that... the one guy that I didn't think I had seen before, I think I had actually, you know, seen him somewhere. I'm not really sure where, maybe um... with one of those people at the house one day or something like that. Um, like, I didn't know him or anything like that, but I maybe had seen him before.

Part 3: What Happened in the Kitchen

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): So Joe, we've so far in the evening we've made it as far as the kitchen, and then—and everything goes shit, downhill after... Joe: Um, there's the one thing in the kitchen that seems all right, you know, when we're talking about music and stuff like that. And then the next fucking thing in the kitchen starts. That's where shit starts to go to shit. Interviewer 2: No, but what happens when... things go south? [shuffling / background noises] I thought this was something else. Okay, that's so weird. Okay. Oh, I hate that. Yeah, it's weird, right? Yeah, I thought it was going to be copy. It ain't copy. Yeah. Okay, so what was your question, Matthew? What... when things go south, how—what happens? Joe: Uh, shit gets weird in, like... in... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Talk into the microphone, please. Joe: Shit just changes, like um... and you can totally tell, you know. It wasn't like it went from, uh, just having, you know, like... well, we were totally partying to where... and then—and then it's just like, uh, a little more, uh, serious, but still nothing that bad. And then it went from that to, uh... like, who are these one people and why the hell is, uh, Dylan there with—with these people? And—and Dylan wants to get a... back up... like, yeah, really strange. Um, and... I mean, to try to say that, uh, that one guy... one of them would like... kind of looks like one of them, you know. I mean, that looks like the—the hair of, you know... or something that I want to say... that definitely, um... guy... now...

Part 4: Moving Kurt Toward the Greenhouse

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, so when we're in the—when we're in the kitchen and things turn to shit, let's talk about that. What happens? Joe: Um... [long pause / low whispering] ...get me out of there real quick, and then... and they want to get... [inaudible muttering] Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, let's see. Um... Joe: ...trying to... well, I guess not trying, he—he did do it, um, to um, get back out of there and back upstairs. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Upstairs to where? Joe: Um, out of the kitchen and into, uh, upstairs... um, the, uh, place they call the greenhouse. Yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Did they place their hands on Kurt? Joe: Uh, yeah, um... just, uh, trying to get him to go. And then, um, it was like, um... Dylan... kind of weird between them... still, uh, leaning on him to—to go, you know. Video... um, more drugs, you know. And... it was like... [trails off]

Part 5: Physical Interaction and Escalation

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Just, how—how did they get Kurt from, like, the kitchen to the greenhouse, though? Joe: Um, just, uh... I guess, just, um... um, and also, yeah, I... basically... like, pressured him and just being right on it. And then... but, and at the same time, I'm trying to, uh... get me to get out, out of there, you know what I mean? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Um, like, did someone get between you and Kurt? Joe: Yeah. And, um, was, uh, was like, uh... facilitating that, which, uh... yeah, was crazy. Yeah, um, it was... yeah, he was trying to make that happen and... getting... to go up there... like... [whispering] ...Dylan, something... doing it like just outright, you know, but the other guy is like falling back until he decides, "Fuck, you know, they need to... he needs to do this, just do it," or whatever, you know. And, uh, and... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Do... do it how? How do they grab him? Joe: You know, like how you would, uh, you know, just like, "Go," you know, and kind of nudge you forward into... you know what I mean? Um, without... I mean, not really, uh, just grabbing them and dragging them up there, you know, like fighting or anything like that. But you know, like, uh... just kind of quick-talking, quick-talking and, uh, and just, um... kind of, um... use the body to, uh... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Pressure him? Joe: Yeah, and kind of push, you know, or whatever there, you know. Yeah.

Part 6: Kurt's Intoxication and Incriminating Photos Framework

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Was Kurt, uh... what was his state of mind at this point? Was he... or was he sober? Was he on drugs? Joe: No, he was... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Was he high? Joe: Yeah, he was high. Um, yeah, because... just, no... already... I mean, he obviously had already done some, and these guys... to, uh, be... you know, pushed to go get some more, but not really trying to say it out loud. And Cali's trying to tell me that these people have pictures of us, uh, and stuff that are incriminating pictures, basically, because they had been sneaking around taking photos in different spots. Yeah, um... the, um... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Get you on that microphone, Joe. Thanks, buddy. Joe: No worries. I keep doing that because you guys are sitting right over there. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yeah, no, all good, man. All good. So when Kurt gets out of the door, um... they take him where? Joe: Oh, um... back... oh, up... um, up in the space up there. The greenhouse, yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Can you mind saying that please? Joe: The greenhouse, yeah. Um, he gets basically, um, herded that way, you know, like, uh... you got like, you're like a third person, you know, like at the doorway, but, you know, all like working on getting... there, yeah.

Part 7: Fatigue and Logistics Argument

Joe: I need... I'm tired of shit, um... and, and it's just hurting my head trying to think about all this. I can totally see, you know, like... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Can we... can we... can we at least just finish this segment and then we'll call it a night? Does that sound okay? Because we... it feels like we—we don't have it yet. Joe: So, no, I understand totally. What I could... yeah, I mean, just like a break with maybe a nap or something like that, you know. Yeah, would, uh... yeah, I mean, I—I—I wouldn't mind like getting... what time is it, like 10 or something? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): It's 11:35. Joe: 11:35. I wouldn't mind getting up in a couple hours or whatever and, uh, okay, okay, so... something like that. That sounds understandable. I could just go for like a little nap. I mean, I didn't get shit... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, maybe, um... but like we've taken a break before and it's taken longer than we thought. Yeah, last break was not 20 minutes. It was an hour. And if we take a two-hour... if we take a two-hour nap, it's going to turn into four. Joe: Yeah, I... we could get up really early in the morning. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): You have no place to sleep. I don't have anywhere to sleep. And then in the morning, I... Joe: You don't want to move that camera right over here in that chair over here and you could lay down? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Uh, well I could, it's just that I've got it all set up and, uh, it's—it's a—it's a big production to get this going. It took me a lot... you should try to finish up right now, and you want to take your camera and go back and just wing it with that camera in his room or something like that in the morning and do some kind of follow-up? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Uh, no. I would keep... I would like to have it in here because I... this is—this is all set up for it, um... Joe: Expensive as hell. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yeah, yeah. It cost a few bucks. Um, all right. Let's just... is there any way we can power through this for a couple minutes, Joe? Would that be okay? I'm not trying to—I'm really not trying to push you in a tough spot, I just feel like... Joe: Actually I have to take off tomorrow because... um, yeah. With a good night's rest, I could way better... um, finish the end of this interview is a way better... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Well, you got... do... let's—let's finish up and then we'll see what, yeah, the morning gives us. That's a good idea. Okay? All right, so yeah, pick up. So we get up. So where are you when Dylan and this other guy bring him upstairs? Um... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Oh, just take your hand off that please, sorry. Joe: No, no worries. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Just making sounds, something like that, yeah. Joe: Can you hear that? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Oh, yeah, you can hear an ant fart with that thing. Um...

Part 8: The Red Dress on the Property

Joe: First got... okay, so Dylan's, uh, doing a fast-talking kind of trying to herd Dylan up there into the um... herd Kurt up there? Yeah, herd Kurt up into the greenhouse. And then you got a... then you got Cali on me all of a sudden, um... trying to... saying there's a bunch of reasons why it might be good to take off from there, you know what I mean? Um, because, uh, the reasons being that would be good to, uh, take off from there is because of these private eyes and and what they've um, uh, videotaped, you know. Um, it's just, um... all, you know, like... that's what, yeah, basically doing or whatever, you know. Trying to divide it um up and get... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Joe, sorry, just over the mic. I—I—I just... no problem, I just—I just can't hear you. The only problem... yeah. Joe: So, um... yeah, um... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): So, so where is your girlfriend Bonnie and her friend Jennifer at this time? Are you—are they in the kitchen with you when—as this is all happening and Kurt's being ushered outside? Joe: Uh, no. Okay, that was just first it was just me, um, Cali, and then, uh, and then Dylan shows up, uh, with, uh, some kind of random weird dudes that actually, I think I—I—I recognize one of them, you know. God, I didn't do nothing wrong, me. I'm going to keep my foot on the thing, keep... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): No, so you—so you, uh... you think you might have recognized one of the people that was with Dylan? Joe: Well, yeah, like, I don't—I don't know the guy. And at first I'm thinking I don't know who the hell this is, but then I'm like... I'm worrying about other stuff. But then, you know... but then, of course, I'm, you know, I'm trying to take in like, uh, what the fuck's going on here and, uh, and who the fuck is this? And then I—then I decide pretty much that, uh, that I recognize, uh, that I've seen this guy before, you know. I don't know if I met him or anything, I don't think I met him or anything like that before, but, uh, I know that, uh, someone has brought this guy around. And, um, whoops... and, um... yeah, that I had seen this guy around someplace before.

And, um, it was like looking, you know, like looking back on it, and even then, uh, you can tell like something's going on. Um, but, uh, the um... it's just messed up. But, um, the um... as Dylan's trying to, um, coerce, uh, um, Kurt and, and, and kind of, you know, like physically a bit, um, trying to push him up that way, I got Cali trying to, um, talk, talk, talk to me or whatever, you know, uh, about like taking off. You know, you could get out of there and stuff. And, uh, and I'm thinking, uh, that, uh, I shouldn't, uh... I didn't feel like I should take off. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Was this still in the kitchen, Joe? Was this in the kitchen or have you moved from this point? Joe: Yeah, I was, uh, trying to, uh, go with, uh, um, those guys, um... with—with Dylan and, um, and Kurt. Um, but, uh, that's not working out, uh, so good, you know. Um, and I... the, uh... hell is it? Um, you know, the guy's like waiting back or whatever, you know, or and then, uh, fast getting fast on, you know. Um, and then—and it seems like when they do start getting him up the stairs that, uh, the guy started to get... doing a hand um, to get a... to get him up the, uh, up the stairs, you know what I mean?

Um, but I'm... it was a... there was a point that I mean where I felt like, uh, I should have—I should've done something, but it's like, you know, like... I'm trying to think like I didn't know, you know. You could tell that he didn't really... but I mean, you know, like did... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): On the microphone, Joe. He didn't really what? Did what... Kurt didn't really what? Um... Joe: Well, see, he was just spent, uh, that time down there and he obviously, you know, like his tolerance has gone down or something and he was, uh, fucked up when he came back, uh, down, you know. Um, um, you know, we... he obviously he was fucked up, um, and, um, it was crazy. But he—he was... didn't—didn't need to go, um, back up there trying to go do, uh, another hit or dope up there, um, above the greenhouse. Um, there was no, um, need for that, you know. And it's like—and I'm thinking like, what the fuck? Um, he definitely doesn't need to fucking do any more dope, you know. He's already doesn't have the tolerance. Uh, I mean, he's like reached and maybe breached, uh, what he needed, you know, to do to get fucked up or whatever, you know. Um, you didn't need to do any more for sure. Fucking crazy.

Part 9: The Driveway and What Bonnie Saw

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): And so you—you were in the... at this point, you've moved from the kitchen to the what, the driveway? And you're—you're observing this, you're watching them, um, get him up the stairs? Joe: Yeah, but Cali's not like... he's trying to not let me or whatever. He's like, "Man, these private eye guys, they—they took pictures, um, and, uh, and you should totally get the hell out of here," um, you know. And, uh, and... it's like, fucking they had a premeditated game, you know what I mean? Um... and then, oh, and then... okay, so when I'm there, I'm trying to go out of the kitchen, you know, like right there at the, um... the top of the driveway. And, um, Bonnie, um, shows up, you know, um... I think they—they were probably in Cali's room or whatever again. And, but, uh, yeah, fucking crazy. Um, so she, uh, shows up, you know, and, um, I'm... yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Well, let's just worry about you then for right now. Let's talk about your story. So you're outside right now and you're—you're witnessing Kurt go up to the greenhouse. So now Kurt's in the greenhouse and you're—you're what? Where are you? Joe: Well, I'm getting... this is going on with getting... toward up the stairs, you know, um... Cali's on me about, uh, these, uh, witnesses to, uh, all this stuff we were doing. But I mean, that—that didn't really matter, which is kind of strange, um, you know. Um, and the stuff we were doing was like shooting dope and, uh, and doing tattoo work and stuff and, and hanging out. Later Cali's trying to, uh, tell me that, um, the, uh... that we should get the hell out of town because that the FBI, um, is going to want—want to, um, interview us and stuff like that, you know. It's just really fucking bizarre shit. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Is he trying to scare you to—to—to leave town? Joe: Yeah, yeah, yep. Um, I just got... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, let's—let's just stay with this train of thought here. So now Kurt's in the greenhouse right now... I know, I know it does, and that's why I'm trying to get it done so that you don't... it's like a Band-Aid, let's rip it off and let's be done with it, okay? Joe: Okay. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, so you... Kurt's gone up to the greenhouse and now you are... Joe: ...get pushed up in the greenhouse, yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): What time of day would you guess this would be? What time of day this was, yeah. Is this at night, like AM hours? Joe: No, um... before midnight, after midnight? That's what I was trying to think about before. Um, it seemed like, um... because we were up for so many goddamn days, you know, I guess it had been... didn't... um, it seems like it went from light to dark. I'm pretty sure there was like—like it was like it got... I don't know how the hell it did it, but it got to, um, way night like fairly quick. But I—I think it started out um... because we're in Cali's room, you know, that has a big window, um, the walls are windows and, uh, see... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Is there a wall of brown shelves in there in that room? In Cali's room, is that the same room? Joe: There's a wall of shelves, yeah, put records on, tapes and stuff like—like brown wood, if I'm kind of thinking something like... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, just make sure I've got the right room in mind. Okay. Joe: And, uh, yeah, there's a—yeah, there's a couple walls of that and stuff, yeah. Anyways, um, it's crazy. Um, that was a weird-type room too. But anyways, uh... so you're out in the driveway, if I—if I understand correctly, and then that's Bonnie, um, shows up and, uh, and she's talking about, uh, figuring out how, uh, she wants to leave. Um, yeah...

Part 10: Looking Through the Window Above the Garage

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): So did—did you—did you see anyone else around the property at this time? Joe: Yeah, like... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Any other characters showing up? Joe: Okay, no. All right. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Did you—did you and Bonnie leave? Joe: Well, we were going to leave and then—and then that got dragged out to really late, you know, where it was like in the AM, you know, but it was like pitch blackout, you know. Um, and, uh... and then we were leaving and then we, uh, came, um, back. But, uh, there's... see, when we finally did leave, Cali and Jen were, um, with us. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Really? Yeah. Um, but how—how much later was it that you left? Did you leave and come right back or...? Joe: We see, um... me and Bonnie see outside there, you know, walking towards we have the little station wagon car, you know, and Bonnie pointed out something to me, you know, through the window. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Window of what? Joe: The window above, uh, greenhouse—or not the greenhouse, but the—the room above the garage. Yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yes, um... Joe: And, uh, I just have my head is just full of this shit right now. Um, it's like a pretty, um, fucked up, um... yeah, yeah, I'm sure it is. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Uh, did you see anything through the window? Yeah, what did you see, Joe? Joe: It sounds like Bonnie, um, might have saw something um when she saw, like as she was pointing it out to me or whatever, and then I focused in on it, you know. But, um... it's like the weirdest goddamn thing. Okay, um... Bonnie hasn't, uh... been... [long silence] ...wearing, uh, something red, you know, about this? No. Let's see what the hell... it was like, um, when he told me, me to look like way there, you know, like... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Sorry, sorry, Joe, your arm's all over the mic. Joe: Yeah, no, no problem. She wanted... she got... "Look right away." Interviewer 1 (Matthew): And you're standing where when you're looking through the window? Joe: Um, see... it's, uh... if you go out the—the door right there, you um... to the—to the left, yeah, and... yeah, so that's you looking at the window from this. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Did you climb up the stairs? Uh, the stairs to the greenhouse? Joe: Uh, no, not see... no. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay. You saw... because there was like a little balcony, like a Juliet balcony, on the other side of the greenhouse. Is that what you're talking about? Joe: Like, it—it's just a little, uh... the, um... coming out of it would be like there's like... how do you describe this? Besides that or whatever, the balcony thing, um... just, um... what Bonnie pointed out, you know, um... was, uh... fucking, I don't know what the hell, um... but it was a... in my eyes and... [long silence] ...just, sorry, I just was just thinking of something and then commenting on what I just saw, okay. Um, anyways, um... it was like the weirdest thing. Um, when she got me up there, it was... I don't know if maybe it's what she said, whatever I just saw she said or whatever, because she said it, you know, and it just got in my mind this time, you know what I mean? She said there's a... and said... sounds ridiculous, um... but, uh... a red dress. Um, yeah, really fucking strange. Yeah, I know. Um, but, uh... and, um... fucking really weird, um... and I think, um... that was just strange as hell.

But then, uh, she's trying to get us to go right and, um, and I'm down to go, but I—I want to go... I want to find out, I guess, what—what the fuck is going on with this fucking... and, and... who, um... but I find out what's going on, whatever, you know. Bonnie doesn't, she wants me to get the car and she wants to get out of there. Yeah. And so Cali's right before that, you know, um, he—he walked away or whatever. Um, and then it was just me and Bonnie for a sec, you know, when she said, "Look." He, um, checks off and, uh, and like, and Cali went like back that way towards either the, um, stairs or back into the house, you know. And, um... and then I start going that way and, and, and get, um, cut off.

Part 11: The Gunshot, Cal DeWitt, and the Flight from Town

Joe: And then that's when they... to get the hell, you know, to fucking go or whatever, you know. And try to avoid, um, basically, um... all of a sudden like I'm saying, we should get the hell out of there and avoid any, um, cops, because he doesn't know exactly what, um, I seen, but he knows a lot of what I seen. And he's just saying that need to get the hell away out of there, you know, like a different city or whatever, you know. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): And, um, was he saying this to you the same night or is this—is it afterwards about moving? Because is that—is that from a different time? Um... Joe: Um, well again, yeah, on a different night or whatever, you know, like... um... he wanted us to leave and, uh, and then we did, but then came right back. And then when we actually did leave or whatever, you know, um, he was saying basically the same stuff, but he was like more sure of himself. Like, um, that the—the cops, um, and whoever, um, it's... they're going to totally be looking, um, for me and we should avoid interviews with the—the cops in the FBI or whatever. I don't know, um, a fucking, uh... yeah, um, it's like a... he was like totally, you know, like put up to that, you know, just saying that or whatever you know. Obviously, it was like super obvious. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): So did you leave and—so yeah, eventually, um, after... started to take off and then came back or whatever, you know. Um, when, um, we did leave, uh, finally, um, Jen and Cali, um, came with. Um, yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): And how long did you leave for before you came back? You guys gone... Joe: Oh, well, um... the, uh... one with the, in the, um, the... when we just trying to barely left and then came back, and then... but when, um, we did, um, like leave and went all the way to Jen's house, uh, was with Cali and, um, and Jen, and, um, and we, uh, crashed out, you know. And then, um, in the morning, uh, they finally found, um, that, you know... um, they finally found the body there supposedly or whatever, you know, um, on the—on the TV, you know what I mean? This is the way, Friday, yeah.

Part 12: Media Confirmation and the Shot's Acoustics

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): When did you find out that Kurt died? How did you find out? It seems like a... Joe: Well... before, um, that... well, it was, um... okay, let me... okay, I'm going to try to put this like... okay, um... for some reason, um... they were talking like, uh... and with the cops and stuff, that like the uniforms... from it was, um, trying to make it seem like—well, not trying, did seem like—um, that, uh, it was already, um, known by whatever, uh... uh, because they working with or whatever, um, but, uh... and it made it seem like, uh... people, yeah, we knew. But, um, but really it—it didn't get known until, um, that one morning, you know what I mean? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Like, did anyone come up to you and say, "Kurt is dead"? Joe: Not just like—not like that or whatever, you know, you know, said... no, I mean, it wasn't like a... it was more, uh... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Was there, like, a feeling of death in the air, almost like it was understood that that was what had happened? Joe: Yeah, that's what I would say more, like, you know what I mean? And, and it seemed like, um... and I'm pretty... it was like said that—that that gun gone or whatever, and, um... but, uh, it's not like... it didn't get... it was like it totally, um, was already known, but then it—it got confirmed. And then it was like a panic to get the fuck out of the—out of town. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Um, how did it get confirmed? Joe: Um, it was, um... on the TV. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Oh, the TV, yeah. So no one—no one went up to the greenhouse to take a look at the crime scene? Joe: Fuck, I didn't. Okay. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Did others? Joe: Yeah, I believe so, you know. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yeah, yeah. Do you happen to know who that was? Joe: Um... fucking... I mean, Dylan and a couple other people, uh... already, uh, yeah, I mean, they up there, um... and, like, Dylan didn't hang out there either, you know. He was over for a bit and he left after the murder—like, left. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, so it was somebody else then other than Dylan. I mean, Dylan would have known, he was the one who did it. So who do—do you know who it was who went up there and took a look? Joe: See...

Part 13: Hole Guitarist Eric Erlandson's Involvement Framework

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): We're almost done, Joe. We almost—we almost got this. We're so close. Joe: Yeah, it's like this is the most and the longest I've talked about this, and goddamn, I just... I feel like you really crash out, you know what I mean? And get some decent sleep for a bit. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): For sure, we all should. Let's—let's wrap... let's say, like, let's give it another, like, couple minutes here, finish it up. Go ahead. Joe: Um, that, you know, um... there was a... it was like it seemed like, um... I think, Eric, maybe? I, I don't know, I always avoided Eric like—like, you know what I mean? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Did you see Eric on the property? Eric Erlandson, um, that's who you're referring to? From Hole? Yeah, guitar player, Hole. Yeah, so what was Eric doing? Joe: Well, um... not doing much... [long pause] ...they... in that fucking space, you know, of him getting killed, you know, and... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): No, no, good. Yeah, the space between the day he's killed and when the body's discovered, yeah. Joe: Um, uh, it's like... it's, you know, and it's like, um, there's a... it was say this or whatever, the... there's like a few folks that, uh, definitely, um, went up there, but, um, they all, um... most, well, everyone got out of there, you know, um, and, uh, that had gone, um, out of there. And, I mean, Cali was straight up telling me, uh, to get out of here and, uh, and, um, basically, uh, take off like—like far away, you know what I mean? Like at least a couple states away. Yeah, you know, I mean, it it seemed like unreal that, uh, that no one... it was just, you know, that—that there wasn't a bunch of cops there, and, and people weren't getting, um, detained and, uh, and, and getting information forced out of them, uh, you know what I mean? It was fucking crazy, man. It just like hurts my head thinking about it. Um, I don't even know, it's just crazy. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): If we could get back to Eric for a second. I'm—I only caught part of what you're were saying there. What was Eric's involvement? I think we're talking about people coming by the house, and you were bringing him up. Did he come by for any particular reason? Joe: Um... yeah, but you know what, it might have not have been... it seems like—it seems like he did come by and, and I, um, seen him. And then, but he just came by and, uh, talked to whoever he talked to and left or whatever, you know. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): So he was only there briefly? Joe: He was there briefly, um, yeah, from what I saw. I always like, uh, when I see that guy, I just... rubs me the wrong way. I always just, uh, hang out in a different room or, or whatever, you know. I just—I just don't like the guy, right. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): And he was around a fair amount from—from what I understand. Joe: Yeah, not around me. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Not around you, though. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. Um, so Eric, that... do you remember which day that was? Was it the following day that he came by? Joe: Um... it was, seems like I seen him, it's him that I saw... [long pause] ...yeah, I mean, what I see on my side between, like, using... from the, uh, what do you call... um, the—the, um... like Cali's bedroom and the, uh—and the, in the jam space, you know, the—the—the recording space, right. Um, I just seen him, um, he showed outside and seen and had just then like, right in that area right there, and I walk whatever way, and, uh, he stays away from me, you know. Um, and so I couldn't tell you a lot on that. I just know I seen him. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, yeah. Um, let me ask you another question. You said that there was a black cop that showed up to the scene? The cop was black or something... um, the previous conversation. Do you recall that? Joe: Um, that's what it—it seemed like um... and it seemed like he—he was a... there was a couple of cops, yeah, that I, um, wanted to avoid and I thought it was going to be something... was going to happen, you know, um, but they just they did not. And that was a different night though, right? You were saying earlier. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yeah. Okay, so the gunshot itself—were you on the premises at the Lake Washington house when you—when the gunshot went off? Were you... did you hear it? Joe: Um, well, I... apparently... [very long pause / whispering] ...it's like it seems like... I am, you know, um... it wasn't like—it wasn't like out like, you know, like a distant make a—a hunting rifle, you know, um... and they, uh... and it sounded different because it wasn't like double buck, apparently. I didn't know that, uh... it was like birdshot or something, huh?

Part 14: Ballistics Recovery and The Suicide Note Speculation

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yeah, makes it... In fact, there's a lot of questioning about the shot that was used because there were only 30 pellets recovered, and there typically are 200 to 300. So people—people have questioned why that would be, and one of the theories is that, um, farmers, when they're trying to protect their families, will take some out so that they won't injure the person, they'll just scare them. And it was believed that perhaps Kurt, while he was up there, had done so so that he could, you know, if there was somebody breaking in, he could be there to protect but not kill. Does any of that ring true to you or anything? Does that ring a bell? Joe: Yeah, that sounds... I doubt that at all. I know what you mean. Um, they—they take all the rounds out, sometimes put like rock salt in there or whatever, you know. Yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Um, that's thinking why was like, instead of like 300 little tiny, there was only like half that or something. Apparently there was only 30 that were recovered. Joe: Really? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Yeah, 30. 30, and they were lodged in his head, but there should have been way more. Um, so it—it's... there's some questioning about what that's all about. Um, did you see them come down from the greenhouse afterwards, after the deed was done? Did they come down... you mean like the motherfuckers? Yeah. Did you see them come back down the stairs and leave, uh, just immediately afterwards? Joe: Yeah, no. No, uh... no, uh... I am... I kind of went and posted up somewhere else. It was fucked up, and I knew that Dylan and people that all of a sudden he there with Kurt or whatever, I just had a fucking... it just seemed like totally wrong and... hell...

Part 15: Who Read the Note and The Final Accusation

Interviewer 1 (Matthew): If I could just ask one last—one last question and then we're done, okay? For tonight. Yeah, please, yeah. Absolutely, I understand. Joe: ...my head like so full of stuff, images. It's just lay the fuck down. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Is that something you've been trying to like block out of your head for a bunch of years, or...? Joe: Apparently, I didn't know that, yeah. But it seems like it. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): I'm just curious about the note, because of course the last four lines of the note doesn't look anything like the rest of the note. And a lot of people are... and some shit they just... that the people that had—that were involved and had something to do with... can you—would you mind going into a little bit more detail on that and then we're done? Joe: No, I'm just saying I... it seems like, yeah, that someone just added that shit to it. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Do you remember when you saw the note for the first time? Joe: Um, the... I didn't even, um, like read it myself or whatever. It it was just read to me. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Okay, sorry, who read it to you? Joe: Uh, I don't know, it was like Cali or somebody um... I'm trying to think who the hell exactly was. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): This was after—before the body was discovered, you had the note read to you by someone? Joe: Yeah, um, at that... I didn't even have a... yeah. Um, yes exactly, yeah. I didn't even like hold onto it, you know, or anything like that. And like, hold onto it and read it, I didn't do that. I just... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Is that why Eric was there? Was Eric there to drop off the note? That's a good question right there. You made it sound like he was there and then he was gone. He came all the way from LA to what, come in and say hello and leave? Yeah, right. I wonder, huh? That's a good question right there, like, you brought it from... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Well, it's just one theory. I mean, the note... it could have even been in Seattle for all we know, the note. But why was Eric... the question becomes why then did Eric need to take a trip, uh, you know, interstate trip? What's the point of that? There's got to be a reason for it, right.

All right, um, I will ask one more question, and that'll be it, right. Last one, the simple question: Who do you think killed Cobain? Joe: Well... I think... Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Into the microphone, sorry, thank you. Joe: Man, I feel real bad about saying and everything like that because, I mean, fuck. I mean... who was there on—on—on... that showed up on behalf of Courtney Love, you know, that had been getting taken care of? Um, Dylan and, and some couple guys... fucking, and those fucking dudes that came with them, obviously. I mean, that seems logical to me, right? I mean, I fucking... I mean, fuck. Like, he has a... what do you call that? Um... yeah, like just... just do something horrific and it doesn't bother you at all. A psychopath, sociopath? Interviewer 1 (Matthew): That, yeah, a sociopath. Joe: Sociopath, right. Right, that's what I meant, yeah. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Um, and then so I think that's—that's probably it for tonight. Hey, that's let's—let's call it—let's call it, okay? Call it like it... call it a night. Interviewer 2: Let's call a night, we'll see how we feel... Joe: ...had my foot on this the whole time. Interviewer 1 (Matthew): Oh, yeah.

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